Silence of Mind

Where God Speaks and Creation Listens

God of the Bible – What’s Not to Love?

Atheists make the case that God is a cruel, malevolent, genocidal maniac. And since that is so, it is up to the a rational, capable, godless mankind to figure out for himself, how to be civilized.

god-is-love

Here are examples of God of the Bible (Leviticus 19, 1-18) laying out the rules of love to  mankind who is lost in hate, bullying, pettiness and greed.

“You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart.”

“You shall not curse the deaf, or put a stumbling block in front of the blind…”

“Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen.”

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Atheists deny God who taught mankind these rules of love and the Christian Western Civilization that wove them into their global civil society for the first time in human history.

Silence of Mind

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95 responses to “God of the Bible – What’s Not to Love?”

  1. Brent Arnesen Avatar
    Brent Arnesen

    Nice cherry picking, dipshit.

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    1. silenceofmind Avatar
      silenceofmind

      Brent,

      This post is a display of the wonderful, loving core of the Bible.

      This core runs through both the Old and New Testaments.

      It is the atheist who must cherry pick.

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      1. Brent Arnesen Avatar
        Brent Arnesen

        BS. Your god only loves those who obey his desires.
        Who made his desires the right ones to obey?

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        1. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Brent,

          As an atheist you don’t get to hallucinate your own version of God and then blame Christians for your hallucination.

          You don’t believe in God.

          That means when we Christians tell you that God is good, you don’t get to say anything one way or the other.

          Liked by 1 person

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          1. Brent Arnesen Avatar
            Brent Arnesen

            Sure I do. It’s called Freedom of Speech. I get to call you an idiot if you are an idiot.

            That’s the fact. Not the ‘alternative fact’ you like to believe.

            You can call your god an icecream. It doesn’t mean he is icecream.

            It may come as a surprise, you religious extremists don’t have a monopoly on the definition of “Good”…. or God.

            I know you want to define your god into existence, but that doesn’t mean you get to.

            Well, you can, but you must accept that you are an idiot to do so.

            You have no idea if a god exists, or if that god is good. Calling it Good is just pathetically stupid.

            It’s like calling aliens on a planet 100million light years away as ‘nice’. You don’t know if they exist, or if they are nice… regardless if you are part of a cult that defines them as such.

            Unless you are admitting your god is just some mythology – in that case, define away!

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    2. Citizen Tom Avatar
      Citizen Tom

      @Brent Arnesen

      And to prove your point, you call our host names?

      The Bible contains many rules. If you look into the rules, you will find that obeying those rules is good for the person who does it. That’s why the Jews were generally healthier than their neighbors.

      Does the God of Bible push the guilty? Yes. Did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. Have you ever considered the possibility that He did so out of pity?

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      1. Arkenaten Avatar
        Arkenaten

        As he liquidated humanity via a global flood as well no doubt. All out of pity, right?

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        1. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Wrong.

          Read the Bible.

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            ”Wrong”, yourself. Read my post and you will see how much you ”Christians” cherry-pick.

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        2. Citizen Tom Avatar
          Citizen Tom

          @Arkenaten

          Can you imagine being raised by evil people? Can you imagine becoming one of those people?

          Why would a Holy God allow an evil race to perpetuate itself and grow ever more evil?

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            More evil that Hitler, for example?
            Stop being a farking whining ignorant apologist Tom and strap on a pair and embrace reality just for once in your silly little god-ridden life.

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            1. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Arkenaten

              More evil than Hitler? Well, it cost quite a few lives, but the Thousand Year Reich never was. What existed before Noah’s Flood? I don’t know, and neither do you.

              Like

            2. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              Noah’s Flood is a piece of narrative fiction, for goodness sake.
              Please tell me you understand and acknowledge this?

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      2. Arkenaten Avatar
        Arkenaten

        And exactly how was Pharaoh guilty? After all he had basically ”given up” and was prepared to let Moses go, was he not? And what did your god do? Harden his heart just so he could later massacre them all.
        Nice one!

        It says as much about those who worship this monster as it does about the monster himself. Oh, I’m sorry …. Himself.

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        1. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Wrong.

          Please read the Bible.

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            I have. But from your asinine responses I venture you have not.
            However, as you dispute the assertion, maybe you would like to explain exactly why Yahweh ”hardened Pharaoh’s heart and later slaughtered so many Egyptians?

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        2. Citizen Tom Avatar
          Citizen Tom

          @Arkenaten

          You are not the first to ask that question.
          https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden-Pharaoh-heart.html

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            And your point?
            Yahweh need not have waited so long. Neither did he need to have sent plagues or massacred the first born.

            So because Pharaoh was a miserable son of a bitch Yahweh had to show just how much more of a son of a bitch he could be! lol.

            Which demonstrates that Yahweh, were he real, was not omnipotent at all… or, maybe he he was and quite clearly then he had a bit of an evil streak, yes?
            Of course, all enlightened, intelligent people know that this episode, as with most of the biblical tales are nothing but historical fiction.
            You know this too , Tom right?

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      3. Brent Arnesen Avatar
        Brent Arnesen

        There are rules in the Bible that are as bad as any rule commanded by ISIS today. Killing gays, killing men, women and children in order to terrorize them into submission – which is what your god is all about.
        Read the Bible for once. Think about it for once.
        And, have you ever considered the possibility there is no God? I mean, seriously, not the Christian kind of considering which is racked with fear and guilt.
        See the world for what it is, then better it. If you can.

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        1. Citizen Tom Avatar
          Citizen Tom

          @Brent Arnesen

          What the Bible says about the punishment of homosexuality, adultery, murder, stealing and various other sins is for the most part not terribly difficult to explain. What is ironic is that you are using Christian standards to condemn such behavior. It is that contrast that bothers you.

          The notion that a Christian would be racked with guilt and fear is more difficult to explain. I tend suspect that a “Christian” racked with fear and guilt would be one who has not read the Bible.

          Anyway, I am kind of disappointed. It took you a month to respond to a comment I wrote over a month ago, and that was the best you could do?

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          1. Brent Arnesen Avatar
            Brent Arnesen

            How could I use a Christian standard to condemn actions that are advocated by the Christian god?

            Think about it.

            If I used a Christian standard, I’d say that it is fine to kill gay people, witches, unruly kids, etc.

            I am using a Humanist standard – a rational, civil and sane standard.

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            1. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              It is apparent you are not using these long delays for research and study.

              https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-humanism.html

              https://www.gotquestions.org/secular-humanism.html

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            2. Brent Arnesen Avatar
              Brent Arnesen

              http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/christian_humanism_religious_humanism_and_secular_humanism/

              “Humanism has been so popular over the past 200 years that religions try to claim it for themselves. The term “humanism” gained wide use in mid-1800s, and liberal religious scholars then applied it to early Christian theologians and Renaissance thinkers.”

              Your attempt is the same thing Christinanity has always done: it has tried to absorb other, more popular and better ideas, then declare itself the source of those ideas.

              That’s why you see Christians who believe the Bible is against gay marriage, for gay marriage, a manual for ecoonomics, a feminest manifesto….

              The Bible is like tofu. It takes on the flavor of the person thumping on it.

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            3. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              Secular Humanism is popular? Really?

              You have this tofu notion of yours a bit confused. What we generally do is interpret what we perceive from our own point-of-view. What the Bible encourages us to do is to strive to see things from God’s point of view.

              As a Christian, because I believe in God I can objectively define what is good and what is evil. The God of the Bible says we are to love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and we are to love our neighbor as we love our self. Good is thus defined as that which we do in love for God or in love for our neighbor. Evil is that which we would do to harm God or our neighbor.

              Since Secular Humanism by definition does not recognize the authority of God, Secular Humanism lacks an objective standard for good and evil. Since the philosophy provides so little rational guidance for conduct, few have much cause to find Secular Humanism attractive. Were I an Atheist, I might still find it desirable to love my neighbor, but I would only do so only because it feels right. Humanism would just be a curious way of packaging a concept that has no rational basis. Loving ones neighbor may feel right, but what makes it rational?

              Before Christianity, what did people do? What did people who don’t believe in God (mostly pagans) do to justify their actions? They used might. That is, they based their ethics upon the notion that might makes right. This belief, might makes right, is why the human race tend to be warlike and self-destructive. Hence, civilization did not progress much until the rise of Christianity and the belief that God is love.

              Liked by 1 person

            4. Brent Arnesen Avatar
              Brent Arnesen

              Your regurgitated the typical apologetic tropes, asserting that you are correct and that only you can be correct. Doesn’t it get tiresome thinking you know all the answers?
              I’d encourage you to look at thinks outside of you cultish idea.
              As for you being able to define good and evil, I can too:

              Good is thus defined as that which we do in love for our neighbor. Evil is that which we would do to harm our neighbor.

              No God required.

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            5. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              No God required? With a vast air of superiority, it seems you would sidestep the issue. How about a bit more honesty?

              Let’s concede you have appropriately defined good and evil. Loving ones neighbor may feel right, but what makes it rational? When it becomes difficult to be good, why would you be good instead of evil?

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            6. Brent Arnesen Avatar
              Brent Arnesen

              Why do religionists struggle with such basic concepts? I think you have twisted your brain into a Gordian knot. You have convinced yourself that things only make sense if a god exists.

              Think about it. Why would you want your neighbor to love you? Wouldn’t that be a better place to live? Of course it would be.

              It’s so pathetic that Christian apologists have brainwashed their cult members to misunderstand basic ethics.

              It’s really not difficult.

              Next time you are in a movie theater, start attacking the person next to you and see if you can steal their wallet. Then, when you are beaten and dragged away, think about how god had nothing to do with any of the reaction. People just want to live their life, watch a movie and go home to their families.

              And, spoiler, you don’t have to love your neighbor… you only need to be decent. Like, if they are a crazy religious extremist, you don’t need to join their cult, just make sure your dog doesn’t shit in their yard, so that they don’t feel the need to shit in yours.

              Basic. So utterly basic. But Religionists need to complicate it so they can justify their hatred toward ‘out groups’.

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            7. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Brent Arnesen

              And to prove how much you want your neighbor to love you scatter insults far and wide. You point to Christian values to condemn Christians, but you can you motivate yourself to practice them? No. Not unless you have a good reason to believe they are real, not just convenient.

              What you call basic has always been difficult for humanity to achieve. The closest examples to what you call basic is where people practice Christianity.

              Liked by 1 person

            8. Brent Arnesen Avatar
              Brent Arnesen

              You just can’t allow yourself even a moment to consider that Christianity isn’t perfect, can you?
              Fear keeps you from looking at things clearly.

              Plus, I notice you react emnotionally to my response, not actually address the intellectual core of the issue: Wouldn’t you rather live next to a decent person? Wouldn’t they rather live next to a decent person?

              How difficult is that to understand?

              And, believe it or not, people lived in peace before Christianity. In fact, humanity has been around longer under non-Christian dogma than with Christian dogma.

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            9. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Brent Arnesen

              Is Christianity perfect? No. Jesus is perfect. The Bible in the original language is perfect, but Christianity, our understanding of Jesus and His Word is imperfect.

              Did I respond emotionally? I think it is obvious that is what you want. Hence your efforts to provoke anger. What you are detecting is pity.

              Would I rather live next to a decent person? Of course. When we spread the Gospel, that is a pleasant side benefit.

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            10. Brent Arnesen Avatar
              Brent Arnesen

              Jesus is Perfect (whatewver that means)
              Just like Aphrodite is beautiful.

              In the mythology, yes, mythology, of Christianity, Jesus is called the Perfect Man.

              However, like all myths, it isn’t so simple. It’s multi-faceted.

              And, no, Greek (the original language of the Bible) is not perfect. There are many ambiguities. For example, alma, does it mean young woman or virgin? Kinda makes a difference to a billion people.

              Your understanding of Jesus can’t be perfect: you are a finite being, so you lie.

              Your understanding of ‘his word” isn’t perfect. Christians have had vicious battles over the understanding of ‘his word’, even to the point of killing each other.

              Yes, you respond emotionally. Religions are emotionally based. They aren’t rationally based.

              Of course you’d rather live next to a decent person – and not a crazy religious extremist who thinks you aren’t Christian enough and don’t adhere to their religious beliefs.

              Why can’t you see your own extremism? Why can’t you be normal?

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            11. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Brent Arnesen

              Still fuming after almost a month?

              Because you know it is true, I can rile you to angry outbursts just by pointing out that all of us, including you, are sinners. What an awful offense! Whereas, you make it personal. You call me an extremist and a liar. Statistically the claim that I am an extremist just by virtue of the fact I am a Christian is silly. Because I am imperfect, I have lied, but not about the perfection of Jesus. I never claimed a perfect understanding of Jesus. Because of His resurrection, I accept His claim to being God, thus His perfection.

              So which of us has more to fear from the anger and hostility of the other? That should be obvious even to you.

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  2. violetwisp Avatar
    violetwisp

    It’s a convincing argument SOM. I have no idea how anyone could work out how to behave appropriately if it wasn’t for the Bible. We’re so lucky to live in Western Civilization.

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    1. silenceofmind Avatar
      silenceofmind

      Violet,

      That is exactly true.

      You people are so steeped in Christian values that you think they happened all by themselves.

      Also, Christian Western Civilization is unique in all of human history and atheists had nothing to do with it.

      Yet there you are every day, taking credit for your great moral outrage at all the injustice still left in the world.

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      1. violetwisp Avatar
        violetwisp

        I think you’re right SOM that many of my personal moral values have been formed by a society based around Christianity.

        Liked by 1 person

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    2. Citizen Tom Avatar
      Citizen Tom

      @violetwisp

      silenceofmind response to your snide remark was spot on. You really ought to think about it. There is a lot of cherrypicking and complaining about what the Bible teaches, but rarely do the Bible’s opponents compare what Christian ethics with the ethics of the pagans who lived two thousand years ago. Why don’t you do a post on that subject? Please let me know when it is done. If you make sincere effort, I think it should make for some interesting reading.

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      1. Citizen Tom Avatar
        Citizen Tom

        Sorry about that stray “what”. Please ignore it.

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      2. violetwisp Avatar
        violetwisp

        Tom, I despair of your lack of education and basic logic. What kind of society can survive more than a few generations without basic co-operation? We humans aren’t really so complex that ‘good’ and ‘productive’ behaviour doesn’t have similar forms in terms of survival success around the world.

        Think about the Chinese philosopher Confucius (551–479 BCE).
        “The this-worldly concern of Confucianism rests on the belief that human beings are fundamentally good, and teachable, improvable, and perfectible through personal and communal endeavor especially self-cultivation and self-creation. Confucian thought focuses on the cultivation of virtue and maintenance of ethics. Some of the basic Confucian ethical concepts and practices include rén, yì, and lǐ, and zhì. Rén (仁, “benevolence” or “humaneness”) is the essence of the human being which manifests as compassion.” (Wikipedia)

        Read about Aborginal concepts of justice and law here: http://www.ajic.mb.ca/volumel/chapter2.html#5

        Have you ever travelled outside the USA? Or read a history book?

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        1. Arkenaten Avatar
          Arkenaten

          It is unfortunate that Tom personifies the typical Christian ethos in this regard.
          Where enlightenment, truth, honesty, evidence and integrity might, in any way, come into conflict with the believer’s personal worldview then simply fall back of faith. After all, Jesus will sort it out in the end, right?

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          1. violetwisp Avatar
            violetwisp

            I give up Ark, there’s only so much even I can take. 🙂

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            1. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              It is important that disingenuous people like Tom are shown up for what they truly are.

              One of the things I find thoroughly distasteful… but oh so typical of the obvious glaring hypocrisy is that SOM is a dyed in the wool Catholic, whereas so many of his sycophantic hangers-on are die-hard Protestant fundamentalists who consider his version of Christianity to be heresy, regard evolution as anathema and the Pope an Anti-Christ who shields pedophiles.

              Yet here they are …

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        2. Citizen Tom Avatar
          Citizen Tom

          @violetwisp

          I asked a straightforward question, and you made some effort to answer it. So I congratulate you.

          “Messages from the Mythical” has a post that addresses this topic that you may find interesting.
          https://madelynlang469.com/2017/02/12/the-golden-rule-is-like-gold/

          What did Christianity do for Western Civilization? There are a number of things.
          1. Jesus defined our neighbor as everyone. He said we must love everyone.
          2. Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to help us obey his commands.
          3. Christianity spread the Bible. When we have an ethical issue, we have the means to contemplate what Jesus would have us do.

          Without the spread of the Christian faith, it is very likely slavery would still be commonplace. As it is, only in the West do people seriously believe men should treat women as their equals.

          Here is an idea I expect will puzzle you. Before Jesus, people regarded pride as a virtue. After Jesus, people began to see humility as virtuous. Don’t think that true? Why do you think we strive for an egalitarian society whereas ancient peoples rarely did any such thing?

          Anyway, that is just a surface appraisal of the affect that Jesus had on Western Civilization. If you want more detail, check out this post.

          WHO IS THIS MAN? by JOHN ORTBERG — PART 6


          John Ortberg wrote an excellent book that helps to explain the affect of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection on our life and times.

          As silenceofmind suggests, we are so immersed in our culture, we don’t easily recognize what Jesus did for us. So you are right to ask if I have been outside the country. To see the significance of Christianity, it helps to see the affects of its absence. Unfortunately, we don’t have to go very far these days.

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          1. violetwisp Avatar
            violetwisp

            Tom, I’m so sorry but I have to give up. SOM and ColorStorm are one thing – all this sheer stupidity wrapped up in absurdly amusing language. But when it comes to people like you and Wally and Madblog, I think I’ve reached the end of my patience bucket to converse with such mindless ignorance. Your grasp on history, of the evolution of human societies is fed purely from a wonky Christian lens. If you’ve read anything about how other societies developed, or travelled in any meaningful way in your life (living on a US forces base as child in foreign country isn’t ‘living abroad’ or ‘travelling’) you might start to see beyond your blinkers. But I suspect you’re a hopeless case.

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            1. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @violetwisp

              You have you lost patience? Understanding is another point-of-view can be a difficult. Let me assure you that ColorStorm, Wally, Madblog, and I are not hostile.

              Personally, I don’t consider you necessarily stupid or evil. I just consider you too often dead wrong and sometimes extremely misguided, but that does tend to be part of the human condition. We need God; He does not need us.

              Note that in order to “win” this debate you attacked my personal capacities. Why do you bother? Since Christians have to admit they are sinners and repent, I have already conceded I have a long ways to go before I ever become perfect — if ever. In fact, I regret my inability to be less proud. I know I must lean on my Savior, not myself, for support. Try to undermine His virtues, if you can.

              If you had confidence in your own position, instead of attacking what you suppose to be my imperfections, you would make a logical case for your own beliefs. What you appear to regret is that you don’t know how to do so. Perhaps that is because the “Church of Me” is a fickle and changing thing. “What do I want to believe today” is not an ideology grounded in substance. It is just about our momentary desires. Without God, the universe too much for any of us to grasp.

              Without divine revelation, we would only know God exists. If He had not written the difference between good and evil in our hearts, our words and deed would be thoroughly vile. If He had not told us and shown us, we would not know how much He loves us.

              You don’t want to believe He loves us? Well, I do.

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            2. violetwisp Avatar
              violetwisp

              “If you had confidence in your own position, instead of attacking what you suppose to be my imperfections, you would make a logical case for your own beliefs.”

              I completely agree with you Tom and that’s why I apologised. You made a statement I believe to be exceedingly ignorant about the world and the history of human societies – so I provided you with two interesting sources that (if you read and understand them) make a mockery of your statement. You responded ignoring both Confucius and the article about Native American justice systems, and linked to Madblog and made the same general original point. I just feel like I’ve had enough banging my head on brick walls. If you want this to be a discussion you have to explain why the philosophy of Confucius is irrelevant, or why other moral codes developed in isolation to the god created by the Jewish people are irrelevant, or explain how it would be possible for any human society to develop if we didn’t apply the logic of treating each other well.

              But it seems you are happy to push all evidence to side (without comment!) and simply return time and time to the same inane points.

              I’d love to believe a benevolent god created all this for some purpose. But I can’t see any evidence for any invisible gods, and I’m more than certain that the god from the stories Jewish people does not exist.

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            3. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @violetwisp

              The philosophy of Confucius, of that contained in Native American justice systems, of Tom, of violetwisp, and of all mankind is not irrelevant. Never said it was. It is, however, insufficient. That is the point contained in Madblog’s post. So I addressed your complaint. What I did not do is accept your argument as true.

              When you reference those philosophies, what you are pointing to is the moral law God gave us. In our heart we know when we wrong another. It does not require a wise man to figure that out. What does require wisdom? That is seeing through our rationalizations. The wise man tests the validity of his assumptions.

              The problem is that each time we wrong another the rationalizations we create to justify ourselves become easier to accept. In fact, because we copy each other, we can justify ourselves just by pointing to the fact “everyone does it”. Hence, a society can all to easily become quite sinful.

              Philosophers such as Confucius and Socrates tested societal assumptions. Sometimes they did so at the cost of their lives. People don’t like being told they are in the wrong.

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        3. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Violet,

          Human life has never valued much more than a bucket of warm spit in China.

          And “Native American justice systems” were purely tribal.

          That is, “others” or people outside the tribe where treated ruthlessly.

          Eastern societies (India & China) and Native American tribal life were brutal.

          Women were breeders and justice was always the advantage of the stronger.

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          1. violetwisp Avatar
            violetwisp

            Have you looked at medieval and early modern history in Christian Western ‘Civilization’?

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        4. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Violet,

          Of course I have!

          And Christian Western Civilization developed into what it is now, after 2000 bloody years.

          And China and the rest of non-Western world still have no idea of authentic human rights.

          Christian Western Civilization is the only place and time in human history that made it past the fireplace, the slave and the beast of burden as primary power sources.

          Liked by 1 person

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  3. God of the Bible – What’s Not to Love? – The Comedy Sojourn Avatar
    God of the Bible – What’s Not to Love? – The Comedy Sojourn

    […] Source: God of the Bible – What’s Not to Love? […]

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  4. Arkenaten Avatar
    Arkenaten

    You really ought to think about it. There is a lot of cherrypicking and complaining about what the Bible teaches,

    Yes , Tom you really ought to take time out and think about what it is you actually believe .

    https://attaleuntold.wordpress.com/2017/03/06/and-godsic-said/

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    1. silenceofmind Avatar
      silenceofmind

      Read the Bible.

      I provided a link to Leviticus Chapter 19 in the post.

      That is the chapter of the Bible where atheists get all the moral values they hold so dearly.

      Liked by 1 person

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      1. Arkenaten Avatar
        Arkenaten

        read the post on my blog and you will see just how much of a vile and most pointedly capricious monster your god really is.

        I challenge you to make answer SOM, if you have any integrity at all.

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        1. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Ark,

          Have a great day!

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            Always, do!

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    2. Citizen Tom Avatar
      Citizen Tom

      @ Arkenaten

      If I told you a story about a murder, and I told you that murder is wrong, based upon the way you treat the Bible, I would have to assume you would think I approved of murder because I told you a story about a murder.

      Anyway, we all need to get one thing straight. While God may be willing to be our friend, He will never be our equal. He must always be our God. We must always obey His commands; He makes the rules, not us. Therefore, when God does something or requires something from us that offends us, we must set aside that feeling of offense and consider as best we can God’s point-of-view.

      God is God. I am not, and neither are you.

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      1. Arkenaten Avatar
        Arkenaten

        Wrong. You sound as if you might be a supporter of Divine Command Theory. If so, this flies in the face of any claims of a loving deity.
        This utterly preposterous doctrine championed by thoroughly disgusting and disingenuous fundamentalists like Craig is the Christian way of avoiding cognitive dissonance.

        Furthermore,rather than point to an omnipotent, loving deity simply indicates the vile nature of the humans who created the stories in the first place.

        And I will ask you once again, surely if you are an enlightened educated person you realize that these tales are simply historical fiction. Surely you do not consider them literal, Tom, now do you?

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        1. Citizen Tom Avatar
          Citizen Tom

          @Arkenaten

          I know you are trying to be intimidating, but you are not. When comes to a choice between fearing a ornery atheist and fearing God, there is no contest.

          I believe the Bible. I don’t always understand how it can be true, but I have learned that it is.

          Are some of the stories in allegorical? Yes, but it is fairly easy to distinguish those from others.

          Who is Craig?

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            Straight question.Do you consider the major themes of the Pentateuch, Adam and Eve, Tower of Babel, The Flood and the Exodus literal?

            Craig; William Lane Craig.

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            1. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              Craig is your problem. Out of morbid curiosity I may look him up, but that is about it.

              The story of Adam and Eve is part of the Creation story. You do realize that the Bible tells the entire story of creation in just three chapters of the Bible?

              To understand the Bible, we have to put ourselves in the position of the people who first heard each book. That is not easy to do. Those people were just as smart as you or I, but they were raised in a different culture. So they would hear the same story and react to it quite differently. So Christians are divided on whether the story is literal or allegorical.

              What do I understand from those three chapters on creation? I think it best to admit I don’t know what exactly happened. I just know God created everything, and everything was good. Then man and woman sinned. Sin has eternal consequence, but God promised a savior.

              Is the Tower of Babel literally true? I think it is. The story doesn’t represent itself as allegorical. Here is one interpretation => https://www.gotquestions.org/Tower-of-Babel.html.

              What does “The Tower of Babel” tell us? That is something I think we all need to think about.

              The Flood and the Exodus are written as literal events. You think it preposterous to believe they happened? So? I believe the Bible.

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            2. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              The geological evidence flatly rejects the flood.
              To suggest otherwise, one may as well deny evolution,and only a fool would do this.
              We know there was a local flood but as for a global flood this is simply nonsense and only indoctrinated creationists consider there is any veracity to the biblical tale.
              The same goes for the Exodus.
              I am sorry, Tom, but your brand of credulous fundamentalism carries no weight in the real world and is roundly rejected and in many cases simply laughed at.
              There really is no place in today’s society willfully ignorant science-deniers like yourself.
              It’s about time you accepted personal responsibility and educated yourself.

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            3. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Arkenaten

              Indoctrinated. Let me think about this. Hard to do since I am soooooo indoctrinated. Most Americans get the vast majority of their education in the public school system — where the Bible is taught?

              Liked by 1 person

            4. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              It means little that you now try to be smarmy and hand -wave away the truth.

              The human genome project has refuted any veracity attached to the biblical tale of Adam and Eve. You are surely aware of this?

              Geological evidence, including plate tectonics prove there was no global flood. The story first originated in the Epic of Gilgamesh from whence it was plagiarized.
              The Settlement Pattern alone has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt there was no Exodus or Conquest and there is no evidence at Kadesh Barnea not at Jericho, or indeed in Egypt

              It matters little what silly game you wish to play, I reiterate, there is no real place in today’s society for indoctrinated creationists who consider there is any literal veracity to the Pentateuch and who deny evolution.

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            5. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Arkenaten

              To some extent, I wish life were so simple.

              First of all, science does not answer all questions. All it is good for is modeling cause and effect relationships. Using science to determine what happened in the past involves a lot of guesswork. Generally, such guesswork works best in a courtroom where the data is a recent origin.

              Second, we have a limited capacity. Generally, when we are trying to establish what is true, particularly with respect to a subject like God, we have to resolve conflicting pieces of data. We cannot do a perfect job of it. That is why faith is required. There is always an element of doubt, but if action is required, then we must make a decision first. Decisions require faith.

              Consider what you are doing. You are getting your jollies by trying to prove just how smart you are by asking you endless questions. That is, you are trying to show I am dumb just because I believe something you don’t believe.

              So you take potshots at things like the the story of creation, the Flood, and so forth. Yet that is not where my faith arises. I believe in Jesus because people died refusing to recant their belief in the the story of his life, death, and resurrection. I believe because people still prefer to suffer for their belief in Jesus rather than give it up.

              As far as Christians are concerned, their belief in the New Testament authenticates the Old Testament. So you are barking up the wrong tree. You are barking at a racoon that exists only in your imagination.

              Do I need a miracle? No. Yet I have them. The Bible. The fact the Jewish people — in spite of every effort to destroy them — still exists.

              So how is it then that those old stories, in spite of “science”, can still be true? I don’t know, but it is something I lose a lot of sleep worrying about.

              Liked by 1 person

            6. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              @Tom

              To some extent, I wish life were so simple.
              First of all, science does not answer all questions. All it is good for is modeling cause and effect relationships. Using science to determine what happened in the past involves a lot of guesswork. Generally, such guesswork works best in a courtroom where the data is a recent origin.

              To use the term ˋa lot of guessworkˊ denigrates science and reduces it to the realm of alchemy.
              The Human Genome Project is not guesswork, Tom and to even suggest this makes you come across as either patently ignorant or disingenuous.

              Second, we have a limited capacity. Generally, when we are trying to establish what is true, particularly with respect to a subject like God, we have to resolve conflicting pieces of data. We cannot do a perfect job of it. That is why faith is required. There is always an element of doubt, but if action is required, then we must make a decision first. Decisions require faith.

              The notion of an all-powerful creator deity is simply a concept with no evidence to support it, and your particular god is nothing but a human contrived narrative construct named Yahweh. Presupposition has no place in scientific endeavours. As Twain very astutely noted: ‘’Faith is believing what you know ain’t so’’.

              Consider what you are doing. You are getting your jollies by trying to prove just how smart you are by asking you endless questions. That is, you are trying to show I am dumb just because I believe something you don’t believe.

              Not in the least. I am sure you are very clever in many areas, but your continual defense of the indefensible illustrates just how willfully ignorant you are. There is in fact little I could do to make you look any more foolish than what you are already doing.

              So you take potshots at things like the story of creation, the Flood, and so forth. Yet that is not where my faith arises. I believe in Jesus because people died refusing to recant their belief in the story of his life, death, and resurrection. I believe because people still prefer to suffer for their belief in Jesus rather than give it up.

              Creationism is utter nonsense and science has already shown this. Evolution is fact. The HGP is fact and no amount of hand-wringing and waving the bible is ever going to change this.it is simply a matter of time before people who hold such beleifs are merely regarded as quaint anachronisms.
              You are entitled to believe in whatever you like. I have no problem with this. But you, like me, blog in an open forum and if you are unable to defend your beliefs adequately and try to rubbish science then you should expect your beliefs to be held up for scrutiny.
              And in the case of Creationism, have such trash metaphorically hung, drawn and quartered.

              As far as Christians are concerned, their belief in the New Testament authenticates the Old Testament. So you are barking up the wrong tree. You are barking at a racoon that exists only in your imagination.
              Do I need a miracle? No. Yet I have them. The Bible. The fact the Jewish people — in spite of every effort to destroy them — still exists.
              So how is it then that those old stories, in spite of “science”, can still be true? I don’t know, but it is something I lose a lot of sleep worrying about.

              The New Testament is equally as credulous. These old stores are not true and you, nor anyone else, has ever offered a single piece of evidence to even suggest as such. As I already mentioned, I don’t care one iota what you believe, as long as you are not allowed to proselytize to those – most notably children – who are unable to marshal an effective argument against your unsubstantiated superstitious clap trap.

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            7. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Arkenaten

              Science is not guesswork? Really?
              😆

              What scientists do is try to figure out how the things God made work. First they collect data. Then they look for patterns. From that point, then they form hypotheses. A hypothesis is basically an “educated” guess. Look up the word.

              The Human Genome Project is a database. Scientists use the database seeking patterns.

              No evidence for God? Not even in the human genome? silenceofmind pointed you to Peter Kreeft. Great source for evidence. However, since you mentioned Human Genome Project, you may wish to check out a book written by Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D, the former director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI). He wrote “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief” (=> https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744).

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            8. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              What scientists do is try to figure out how the things God made work.

              Really? Name me a genuine scientist from the current crop that is working on this endeavour and also will you be so kind as to direct me to his/work.
              And did you honestly believe I would direct your attention to the HGP without knowing exactly who Francis Collins is? Are you serious ? And you have just stumbled across it and are suddenly feeling all smug and cosy hugging yourself with such glee! You are such an arrogant, ignorant fool that even Jesus would shake his head at you.
              The average atheist would knock stripes off you and your pathetic understanding of the bible and science without even breaking a sweat.
              You did not even know who William Lane Craig is for the gods’ sake.
              And the Human Genome Project has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that there never was an original Adam and Eve as per the bible so that rather puts the damper on Original Sin does it not?
              So much for Paul and Augustine.
              Truly, you are a disgrace to Christian apologetics. Grow up, Tom. Or go and collect gate money at Ken Ham’s Ark Encounter.

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            9. Citizen Tom Avatar
              Citizen Tom

              @Arkenaten

              Whether or not you already knew of Francis Collins is not my problem. I just suggest you read his book.

              Anyway, since being on the wrong end of an unrelenting stream of insults and unsupported assertions is unprofitable, I think I will find a better use for my time.

              Liked by 1 person

            10. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              Nothing appears to be your problem.
              However ignorance IS your problem.

              And yes, a good use of your time might be to study some biology, archaeology and history.

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            11. ColorStorm Avatar
              ColorStorm

              Ha. The funny man with the hard helmet speaks again!

              Biology: male and female created He them.

              Archaeology: Jerusalem itself is enough

              History: Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

              Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests…………………..

              But THIS history does not support your quest for godlessness, so let’s simply get out the grand eraser of the atheist!!

              Go away and read the post/ Kreeft again, as it dismisses your persistent bitchin..

              Liked by 1 person

            12. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              Amazing… when you are unable to offer any sort of reasonable, credible argument to refute your detractors ( if in fact you ever had a single reasonable argument) you resort to being your usual churlish self.

              Must you be reminded yet again of the term Historical Fiction?

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            13. ColorStorm Avatar
              ColorStorm

              Don’t blame others for your refusal to engage you God-given brain.

              Your stubbornness to common sense, logic, reason, and reality know no bounds. The answers you seek are staring you in the face, and you bring a blind eye and a deaf ear.

              You may want to consider the grace of God.

              Take it away SoM!

              Liked by 1 person

            14. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              Is that Grace alone or am I required to do Good Works as well?
              I can never quite remember which one is the True Christian way?

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        2. silenceofmind Avatar
          silenceofmind

          Ark,

          To understand that modern science has indeed proven the existence of God you’ll have to first train yourself to think rationally.

          You can go here: http://strangenotions.com/unpacking-first-cause/…

          …to learn how to think rationally about cause and effect and how cause and effect leads directly to rational proof that God exists.

          Deprogramming yourself out of atheism requires that you take control of your own mind and train it how to think rationally.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply
          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            I am open to be convinced that Modern Science has proved the existence of god and you are more than welcome to show me, as you have already been convinced.

            But could you please explain to some of these half baked twots that science has also demonstrated the veracity of the HGP that the Exodus did not happen and neither a global flood a la Noah?

            And please also ask these same individuals why they consider Catholicism not to be proper Christianity. As we are all looking to discover truth and these lot are continually preaching morality ethics etc.

            Maybe you could start a thread with someone like Wally and discover just why he thinks you will likely be going to b urn in hell for eternity?

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          2. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            I just clicked on your link…. sadly Kreeft is a Christian apologist, so therefore he has no standing among the proper scientific field regarding the issues at hand, and therefore nothing to say regarding this issue.
            Thanks all the same.

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            1. silenceofmind Avatar
              silenceofmind

              Ark,

              Sadly, you don’t know how to think rationally and consequently you just judge things according to a labeling system that has been brainwashed into your mind.

              Your little labeling system doesn’t determine truth or falsehood.

              For example, anyone no matter your little label, can state 1 + 1 = 2, and it will be a true statement.

              Go to the link and read what Kreeft has to say.

              Then train your mind how to think about it outside your little labeling system.

              You will discover a whole new world of joy.

              Liked by 1 person

            2. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              I did read what he had to say.
              As I mentioned, he is a Catholic Apologist, thus, he has little or no credibility in the world of real science and probably even less among True Christians.

              Are you going to explain to the sycophantic Protestants that suck up to you that their religion is false, a heresy, or do you think that the atheist/atheism is your real
              problem?

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            3. silenceofmind Avatar
              silenceofmind

              Ark,

              Dr. Kreeft explains Aristotle who was not Catholic.

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            4. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              I know, and neither are Wally or the Branyans. Please explain why YOUR religion is to be trusted and Wally’s version is heresy.

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            5. silenceofmind Avatar
              silenceofmind

              Ark,

              No you don’t know.

              That is because, according to your little labeling system, Dr. Kreeft is a Catholic apologist and therefore has no credibility.

              You’ve now begun to argue with yourself and lose.

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          3. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            I note that Kreeft is also a Catholic, so he will have little standing among the more fundamentalist Protestant crowd. Although being the monumental hypocrites most are, they will warmly applaud your efforts at trying to rubbish the atheist while throwing you under the bus as they do so.

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        3. ColorStorm Avatar
          ColorStorm

          @ark

          Do you enjoy choking on your own ignorance? Try doing battle with the MERITS of Kreefts post, and not putting forth your endless idiotic diversions.

          True science is observational, testable, verifiable, and repeatable. The repeatable sunrise and the cold and hot of the earth sings the song of the Creator, not some random act of cosmic serendipity.

          It must pain you no end to know of intelligent believers who are scientists, who can with pure reason put to the grave godlessness in a few sentences.

          Try refuting Kreefts logic. You cannot. You will not. His conclusions are unavoidable. And godlessness has long been the corpse of the rebellious.

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          1. Arkenaten Avatar
            Arkenaten

            Exactly! Which is why Creationism is a pile of steaming horse turds.
            And the Catholics believe in evolution.
            So, rather let’s discuss this, first, shall we? Especially as you do not consider Catholics to be proper Christians.
            let’s just test how far you hypocrisy goes shall we?
            I bet you are unable to reply with a straight answer that addressees this question.

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            1. ColorStorm Avatar
              ColorStorm

              Straight answer? Ha. Easily.

              The issue is WHAT the link by Kreeft addresses. I don’t care if a termite wrote it. It is TRUE.

              Try if you are capable, of removing his name from the article. Address the MERITS as I stated before. You cannot. You will not.

              And as to your request for me to chastise other believers…….forget it, as I also mentioned the desires of many to create ‘wars.’ I have long known your game, and you have been checkmated already.

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            2. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              You cannot just say it is true, even if you write it in CAPITALS.
              And you did not address the fact that he is a Catholic who you do not consider are True Christians, even though the Catholics invented your religion.
              Address this issue first.
              Off you go.

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            3. ColorStorm Avatar
              ColorStorm

              You will not dictate the terms of a post in which you are a guest, and in the which you are applying your eternal smokescreen of dunceology.

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            4. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              So, why are you afraid to tell me why you do not beleive he is a proper Christian?
              Why are you behaving like a bloody hypocrite?

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            5. ColorStorm Avatar
              ColorStorm

              Are you purposefully deaf, dumb, and blind?

              WHERE (all caps for your emphasis) have I said SoM is lacking in any way? Or any other believer for that matter? Your pettiness is on full display, and it appears you are lost as fog as to the reality of the body of Christ……..which has MANY members…………….many branches………………… ONE tree.

              Now back on point. You cannot, and will not find any weakness in Kreefts post. It is rock solid in every way, and godlessness has long been exposed as fraudulent as it acts like a dead hyena laughing at God.

              I’ll leave you in hands of the capable SoM to clean up your mess.

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            6. Arkenaten Avatar
              Arkenaten

              Fair enough. So, let’s clear this up once and for all: Do you believe that Catholics are True Christians, and Catholicism is the genuine form of Christianity?

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  5. ColorStorm Avatar
    ColorStorm

    @SoM

    re. your link

    The premise is rock solid, and the conclusions are inescapable. Like an attorney building his case, he puts forth the perfect sequence that destroys godlessness, connects the dots of reason, and demands that the human mind, IF BEING HONEST, must admit that the first Mover can only be God.

    People will bitch because the writer is Christian, Catholic, motorcycle owner, stamp collector, married, single, black, white, take your pick, and miss the point that what he says is TRUE and irrefutable. Guaranteed his argument will be summarily dismissed by the regular non thinking patrons around here. If this case was brought before me on a bench, and with the arguments laid out by Kreeft, and without any valid objections, on the merits of the godless’s inability to address his points, I would throw them out of the courtroom for stupidity.

    You provided a valuable link here, and Degrasse Tyson, Nye, Hawking, etc, would do well to read such well thought out and bone crushing truth that quite easily destroys godlessness in a New York minute. Excellent writing, thinking, and presentation.

    Love the final thought here:

    Not everyone can understand all the abstract details of the first-cause argument, but anyone can understand its basic point: as C. S. Lewis put it, “I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself.”

    ps; just noticed an insane observation by a guy with a funny cement hat who completely washed away your agreement with Kreeft because he is of a certain religious persuasion. Ha! Missing entirely the fact of HOW he put his arguments together, like LINKS ON A CHAIN…………………….

    Truly the godless mind is missing a few links of common sense and reason. And once more, nice work in providing this link. It is rock solid and AWEsome.

    Liked by 2 people

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    1. silenceofmind Avatar
      silenceofmind

      Storm,

      People like Ark demand conversation but haven’t developed their own minds to think rationally.

      And without a reasoning mind, what common ground is there for dialog?

      Because people like Ark haven’t trained their own minds to reason, to them everything is a matter of faith.

      That is why he doesn’t understand that though Protestant and Catholic have differences in the way they see their faith, they are still able to find common ground in the realm of reason.

      People trained to think rationally understand the difference between faith and reason.

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      1. ColorStorm Avatar
        ColorStorm

        @Silence do good

        Well said. And I would add that while they (he) tries to form internal wars with various believers, with the sole purpose to discredit scripture, their ‘straining at a gnat’ exposes their swallowing the camel.

        At the end of the day, God’s word is good, and reason will always agree with Him.

        I really appreciated the stone upon stone layering of Kreefts case. Like a fortress of truth.

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  6. Jodie Avatar
    Jodie

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  7. Portland, OR car insuranace on-line quotes Avatar
    Portland, OR car insuranace on-line quotes

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